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| How in the world can Chang receive both marks and be represented as being "saved"? I know the books says he was "forced" to receive the mark of the beast, but the Bible says you can't serve 2 masters or have both marks. You really should have had Chang stand for God and become a Trib Saint. I mean, this IS fiction, isn't it? Not everything in these books are in line with the Bible. Is that the case? Should these books be seen as "fiction" and be left at that? | |||||||||
Rookie
Reg Date:
August 6, 2001
Num Post: 27
| Posted: | 10/23/2002 3:08:29 PM | |
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Revelatioin 14:9 - And another angel,a third one, followed them saying with a loud voice, "If anyone WORSHIPS THE BEAST AND HIS IMAGE, AND RECEIVES (takes freely)A MARK on his forehead or upon his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the arath of God . . . savinggrc . . . I have a question for you. Just suppose there was no rapture and we all had to endure the tribulation. You were in a position where you were going to have to take the mark or die. When you were being taken to the place where they were to apply the mark you yell out that you will never take it. Someone knocks you out and when you wake up you have it anyway. You never worship the beast. Should God send you to hell for having the mark, even though you tried to resist but were forced? By the way, I'm truly not trying to be arguementative. I'm just really curious to see what you would think about that. God is SSOOOO big I'm sure He has also thought of the "what if's" and made provision for them. Whatever it may be it will be RIGHTEOUS and it will be GOOD. Romans 8:28. Why . . . I know that you didn't mean to sound judgemental, but when you first asked your question, you went on to say what Mr. Jenkins should have done or written. That may have contributed to his response. Again, please understand that I don't say this to be rude or arguementative. It was just an observation. Lastly, can we all please stop bickering!!!! It is unseemly for Christians, and is heavily discouraged by scripture. ------------------------------ And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost. Revelation 22:21 | ||
Veteran
Reg Date:
August 26, 1999
Num Post: 2274
| Posted: | 10/23/2002 5:03:44 PM | |
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Quote: To say Jerry is misleading people is to ignore the Miklos, Steve Plank, and Big Zeke (to name a few!) that have paid the ultimate price for the beliefs. Funny how everyone that attacks Jerry on Chang never mentions the many others that have been killed for not taking the MOB. Free: I agree! I found the scenes at the guillotines where the Christians prayed and were led to their beheading very moving. ------------------------------ John 8:32 "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 3:7 "..Ye must be born again" - Jesus | ||
Veteran
Reg Date:
November 13, 2001
Num Post: 2045
| Posted: | 10/23/2002 9:16:08 PM | |
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realize that it doesn't matter what Jerry and Tim speculated in the book. It only matters what the Bible says. Yes, yes you are right. No, I don't beleve this Chang situation will happen, but I believe that God, as powerful as he is, could let it happen. Saving, I'd like to know what you think about the "coma scenario" CIBO gave. ------------------------------
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Veteran
Reg Date:
January 19, 2002
Num Post: 469
| Posted: | 10/23/2002 10:51:04 PM | |
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What a tempest in a teapot. If the authors own explaination doesn't settle the question, then someone other than the author has a problem.
------------------------------ Tim Trower God Bless America Matthew 24:36, 24:42, 24:44, 25:13; I Thessalonians 4:16-17; Revelation 20:4, Daniel 9:27 | ||
Veteran
Reg Date:
October 5, 2001
Num Post: 4453
| Posted: | 10/23/2002 11:01:34 PM | |
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"The Bible is clear that anyone with the mark is condemned to hell." Glad that's clear to you. It's not to me or to Dr. LaHaye. It's clear that anyone who receives or takes the mark is condemned, but it doesn't speak to the issue of having it forced upon you. ------------------------------ Jerry B. Jenkins | ||
Veteran
Reg Date:
October 5, 2001
Num Post: 4453
| Posted: | 10/23/2002 11:04:55 PM | |
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Why: I owe you an unequivocal apology. I will take at face value that you are not acquainted with Eric and that you posed your question out of pure curiosity. I hope despite my tone that you are clear on my answer, even if we stand disagreed. Will you forgive me? ------------------------------ Jerry B. Jenkins | ||
Rookie
Reg Date:
January 19, 2002
Num Post: 133
| Posted: | 10/24/2002 7:36:36 AM | |
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| An interesting article.... http://www.raptureme.com/scgi-bin/rrnews_list.cgi?cmd=one&file=rrnews/N.20021024.074656.ID_Chip_s_Contr The part about "chipping" an Alzheimer's patient against their will is in line with our discussion. Another thought---By this point in the tribulation, it should be clear who is who (Anti-Christ and False Prophet). If Satan knows that all he has to do is to get people implanted, don't you think he is crafty (and crazy) enough to drug, knock out, "chip" you while your an infant, "chip" you while you are not mentally stable (Alzheimer's patients, dementia, etc...) I don't think God would turn his back on these? Revelation 14:9 - And another angel, a third one, followed them saying with a loud voice, "If anyone WORSHIPS THE BEAST AND HIS IMAGE, AND RECEIVES (takes freely) A MARK on his forehead or upon his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God... The key point here seems to be the word "and". If any of the above "what if" scenarios play out, maybe when the time comes (we wake, come to, etc...) we would have the choice to worship the beast (or the image). If we refuse, we risk death on earth and become a martyr. If we worship the beast, we are damned and receive the Wrath of God (7 plagues). God has this all planned perfectly. He knows every move Satan will try to make. He has devised a perfect counter to anything Satan could try. As one of my former Pastors would say---"Let go and Let God...." C-IBO | ||
Rookie
Reg Date:
October 20, 2002
Num Post: 9
| Posted: | 10/24/2002 8:42:28 AM | |
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| Apology accepted. I also apologize for continuing to fan the flames of an argument. Truce. To the person who said the authors explaination "was enough". My ultimate question was if this was a personal belief of the author or just a book plot. I didn't feel I got that answer but I don't need that now. I received several really good scenerios a explanations from a lot of people. I realize people's personal beliefs are their own and they don't need to share them with me. This has been very interesting to me, and I know it has caused a lot of arguments, but I feel like I learned much from it. Thank you for your indulgence in this matter. Michelle | ||
Veteran
Reg Date:
November 13, 2001
Num Post: 2045
| Posted: | 10/24/2002 4:12:26 PM | |
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Well, Michelle, you could have gotten mad and left with some of the ways you were treated. I think everyone, or mostly everyone, got a little too "uppity." Thank you for at least understanding why.
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Rookie
Reg Date:
July 25, 2001
Num Post: 91
| Posted: | 10/24/2002 7:44:17 PM | |
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I guess disagreements do happen. Look at Peter and Paul in Galatians chs. 1-2. Anyway, all's well that ends well in Christ 
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